Still no GUI, but lensflare. Is that clever? [Archive]

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panocanarias

11-19-2007, 01:44 AM

Denis,
with all due respect! But:
who really needs flare, twisting hotspots and flying postcards?
Flashpanorama provides outstanding quality, but it should not be a tool only for "gamers" and "scripters".
What most users really need is an easy, user-friendly GUI for just basic work (single and multi node).
Instead of seeing more and more tweaks and bells and whistles, I would like to see an easy way to produce correct xml-files first.
You should bring a GUI soon and think of all the plugins and add-ons as "candies".
I' m sure, this would increase flashpanoramas acceptance noticeable.
Regards,
Klaus

HansNyberg

11-19-2007, 06:07 AM

Thanks Klaus

You are expressing exactly my thoughts.
All these stupidities are only for amateurs.
We who are working professionally have no use for flare and other disturbancies.

Professionals are willing to pay many times the price for the viewer for a Gui which can do all the basic things.
Thats what he or someone else should concentrate at.

Hans

neither

11-20-2007, 08:01 AM

yes,i need the gui and encrypt my work!

thx!

jaaaab

11-20-2007, 09:14 AM

Hi Hans,

I understand your point of view about FPP, but it is what makes it specificity compare to other players.

We can develop our owns interactive tours finally as we intend them. Each panographer can customize as he wants.

So for the non programers users, Denis made an editor plugin (check your plugins folder) that helps a lot to create virtual tours, positionning hotspots etc. without writing a line of script.

So did you find it? if yes, what's the problem then? You see there are features for experimented and non experimented users :)

Cheers.

jaaaab

11-20-2007, 09:15 AM

Klaus and Hans, sorry ;)

ThomasK

11-20-2007, 01:09 PM

Same here, what we need is a tool to encrypt the panos.
And a GUI to produce a interactive tour - maybe also with limited functions - but the fast way.

A good example for such an interface to get a fast slideshow presentation in Flash is for example www.soundslides.com

It's just as simple as that: Going on location to get the source pictures and convert them to panos is just time consuming enough, not to forget the time looking for clients and the other usual office stuff. Sitting in front of the monitor and trying to write the xml is a whole new thing for photographers.
Or let's say it with other words: there is a need for such a tool to cut development times for non-xml-geeks.

What about creating a list of people interested in a GUI that would cost x $ just to get a sum for covering the development costs?

panocanarias

11-20-2007, 03:48 PM

...... $ ...just to get a sum for covering the development costs?
Thomas, there' s really no need to collect money for something basic as a GUI.
Now Denis invests much of his time and work-capacity just for a handfull of "gamers".
I'm sure there are more "professional workers" out there than "tweaking-freaks".
[ @jaaaab and others: don't take it personally! ;-) ]
If flashpanorama would come along with a GUI, Denis easiely would sell a lot more licences.

Regards, Klaus

suastegui

11-20-2007, 04:36 PM

I totally agree with Klaus and Hans. I don't want to spend my time coding xml's. My camera work is way more important. Coding doesn't give you a better pano.

zxcvbnm

11-20-2007, 06:27 PM

I do think that having pop up explanatory captions appear as you move around a pano to tell you what things are could vastly improve the medium. You can do it now manually but rather hard work. A simple gui thing to do it would make it much more accessible and widely used.
________
vaporizers (http://vaporizers.net/vaporizers)

Aifos

11-21-2007, 12:43 AM

zleifr

11-23-2007, 03:34 AM

cheathamlane

11-23-2007, 04:13 AM

Ok, two questions:

1. How would this theoretical GUI work? This is the answer that any hypothetical developer would need before trying to build such a GUI, and this answer needs to describe IN DETAIL how to place a complicated hotspot, like one that executes a function, and how you write that function in the GUI. And how much would you pay for the program?

2. How much would you pay to "outsource" the xml writing to an expert xml writer?

--snip--

And if we can't give answers to the above, or we discover that these things really aren't worth that much to us, then as aifos said, we will have to sit down in front of the computer and learn the xml and be happy that Denis gave us so much freedom to create such advanced and complicated interactive panoramas once we've mastered the xml.

Hey Zephyr:

Not sure if you're being rhetorical or really asking questions.

I think tone thing is -- and we see it here on the FPP forums and I have seen it in other forums as well -- that there are plenty of folks who would use the heck out of and create (maybe ;) ) really compelling tours/content with it if they didn't have to peck out a line of XML or ever see a spot of code.

I'm happy to use BBEdit and Flash to create the tours I've made and will make. I've also toyed with the idea of creating my own simple GUI (a la Flash and mProjector) to help with file management, initial XML creation, and other things.

I made a post to the PanoTools NG list, which was in response to several peoples' posts there all about wanting a GUI for FPP. I'll link to it here and give the salient portion.

From PTNG forum, Post re: Which Flash Player? (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/14385)
A while back, I began creating a GUI interface to create QuickTime/
QTVR tours, specifically to help inclusion of spinControl:VR (which
many folks found difficult to do, with its use of XML & JavaScript).

Ironically (sort of), I was using Flash to create the GUI - and
mProjector to aid in making system calls, file handling, and FTP
functions; and in compiling out to cross-platform application.
mProjector is the same app used to make SoundSlides IIRC.

I abandoned the GUI when I decided to stop actively developing
spinControl:VR (http://spincontrol.cheathamlane.net). I have the source files for the unfinished project [edit: which would greatly speed up developing one for fpp].
If there was a huge hue and cry, or apparent need, or even $$, for a
GUI for FPP I might be coerced into making the GUI a nights and
weekends project. I'd build on what I already have. Possibly someone
could help in layout/design and thoughtflow. It also wouldn't be a
huge stretch to have the GUI also handle, say, SPi-V XML.

The downside to a GUI like this for FPP is that it could only really
handle the most basic needs -- and not allow for _too_ much of the
creativity which is inherently possible to deliver via Flash. The
"wishlist" for a GUI like this will be as long as the wishlist for
FPP itself. ;-)

...My response was a conversation killer, since no-one responded to me at all and the thread went away. I guess it was pretty ballsy of me to actually suggest that someone get [I]paid to create the GUI. ;).

Similar to how I try to help out on this forum and other forums -- I love to help others help themselves, but there's a point where it becomes a consulting gig and not just lending a hand. My clients, which include other VR photographers and developers in addition to my regular corporate/retail/marketing niche, pay me a good hourly or project rate to consult.

I have found that there are folks who understand that their time and money is better spent on someone like me to get the job done, and they can do what they do best -- whether it's photography, selling things or going to the beach.

At any rate, Denis's Editor plugin goes a long way to helping people get their XML written. I think many people could benefit from some quality time with the editor. ;) That said, I bet a simple forms/menu driven interface to creating simple tours might be of benefit too. <sigh>

Cheers,

cheathamlane

11-23-2007, 04:23 AM

Hmmm... just realized that my response was part of a much longer thread than just Zephyr's post. It's pretty much in the same vein as the Panotools NG forum thread was.

Some of this talk of a GUI is moot, because none of us know what Denis is planning. Maybe there are some of us who are beta testers, but I don't know who.

I agree that Denis might think about spending more time on some basic look-and-feel things and on getting FPP to run EXTREMELY smooth rather than coming up with eye-candy plugins/additions. Hans can be a little harsh, but he's got the right idea.

And, all that said, I'm on the fence about whether or not I want FPP to be mor accessible to other photographers / tour developers. I'm enjoying being a little bit ahead of the curve in adoption, and my clients like FPP. Being in the forefront also helps me sell my services to other photographers who aren't interested in knowing what XML looks like, but who might not call me if they were given a GUI.

?

zleifr

11-23-2007, 07:21 AM

Patrick: No I really was and am asking those questions. I believe that the reason we don't have a GUI is that we collectively don't really know what this GUI looks like or what it allows us to do. Essentially the statement, "I want a GUI for FPP" is very vague. If I were Denis, having already given us the editor plugin, I would say, what do you mean? you want a GUI, you have GUI, what's wrong with it?

So, if Denis or anyone else is going to develop this GUI we need to be able to say it should do this, this, and this, and a lot of us agree, and if we all start asking for a GUI that does THOSE things, then someone will decide to develop it, if it is economically viable.

a simple forms/menu driven interface to creating simple tours might be of benefit

Can you expand more on that? Do you mean something like this:
1.pick a folder with a pano cube or .mov in it from a dialog;
2. select a set of predefined control buttons like pan tilt zoom for the bottom from a pop down menu;
3. pick another folder with another node in it
4. select how to connect the two nodes: hotspot in pano or comboBox controller
4a if joined with hotspot click image to select hotspot location, or if comboBox type in label, and repeat for second node
5. click save and name the folder to save into, and the images, xml file, pano.swf, hotspots.swf etc are all saved into the folder ready for uploading

A program that does those five things can be developed, but is that the GUI people want? (I really don't know the answer to that question, so I am not being rhetorical.) (Since we already have a GUI, why would anyone develop another one, UNLESS we users can say why the editor doesn't fill our needs, and what our needs are, specifically).

And then finally, if that is what we want, or something else, are any of us willing to pay for it? If yes, probably someone can be convinced to build it. If no, then we'll have to try to convince Denis that it would be worth it to him to build it for us for free because he will sell so many more licenses to fpp, and make some money for his trouble.

Does that clarify the question?

HansNyberg

11-23-2007, 08:37 AM

How a Gui should work.

Zephyr, you are a Mac user, you should know.
If you ever used CubicConnector you have the basic functions needed.

I recently made a 7 pano tour in CubicConnector, It took me less than 2 hours and I did not have any experience using Connector for this purpose even if I used it for single hotspots and adding sound.
I am also working on a Flashpanorama tour for a university which I guess I have used minimum 5 workdays on. There is no way I can bill my client for more than 1-2 days.

Doing a basic tour with Hotspots, a map or list/ thumbnails and with added directional sound should be just as easy and fast as in CubicConnector.

From what I seen the JTAS Gui is very similar with showing the cubes to ad the hotspots on. When he can do it and write the needed XML it must be possible for any experienced programmer to do it.

A Gui for Flashpanoramas should be made with the ability to ad actions or plugins for new functions just like Photoshop and Golive.
We have several similar Gui's for slideshows in flash.

Most pro photographers would pay $200-400 for such a Gui if it is well made.

Hans

cheathamlane

11-23-2007, 04:04 PM

Can you expand more on that? Do you mean something like this:
1.pick a folder with a pano cube or .mov in it from a dialog;
2. select a set of predefined control buttons like pan tilt zoom for the bottom from a pop down menu;
3. pick another folder with another node in it
4. select how to connect the two nodes: hotspot in pano or comboBox controller
4a if joined with hotspot click image to select hotspot location, or if comboBox type in label, and repeat for second node
5. click save and name the folder to save into, and the images, xml file, pano.swf, hotspots.swf etc are all saved into the folder ready for uploading

That's it almost exactly. (I have a whole lot of this already written for the GUI I abandoned; it could be changed/extended to be FPP specific) Maybe:

6. save tour parameters to preference file for later update/upkeep, without having to go to individual xml in tour.

--
There are so many repetitive tasks that don't really change from "tour to tour". There are many people who just want the basics -- a set of panos, with a basic set of tools to get from one to the other. People who want or need more custom interactive things are a niche subset of this group, and many of this niche are coders like you or me.

A program that does those five things can be developed, but is that the GUI people want? (I really don't know the answer to that question, so I am not being rhetorical.) (Since we already have a GUI, why would anyone develop another one, UNLESS we users can say why the editor doesn't fill our needs, and what our needs are, specifically).

And then finally, if that is what we want, or something else, are any of us willing to pay for it? If yes, probably someone can be convinced to build it. If no, then we'll have to try to convince Denis that it would be worth it to him to build it for us for free because he will sell so many more licenses to fpp, and make some money for his trouble.

Does that clarify the question?

Yep, thanks... :) I think my answers remain fairly relevant, if a little scattered. More like thinking it through, I guess.

Ultimately, approval for a GUI will need to come from Denis. Whoever sets to creating an app that will allow folks to make FPP tours will need to be a little bit in Denis's hip pocket -- and Denis is real good at keeping quiet. ;) We have no idea what Denis has up his sleeve, so this may be fruitless discussion.

cheathamlane

11-23-2007, 04:06 PM

Most pro photographers would pay $200-400 for such a Gui if it is well made.

Hey Hans --

If you pay me $3,000-5,000 I'll make one just for you! :-P

WideEyes

11-24-2007, 08:56 AM

First off. I just want to let you know that I started writing my input yesterday, so some of it might not be as relevant anymore. I do apologize for that.

I think this is one of the most interesting threads in a very long time, and it raises a very interesting question. Should FPP only be for developers or should it be for photographers?

As it is right now, you definately need a lot of knowledge about programming before you start utilizing the full potential of FPP. Sure that gives some people a huge advantage, but it also means that FPP will not be used by the majority of virtual tour providers out there. Is that good? No I don't think so. Sure it will give a few people a competitive advantage for a short period of time. But remember we're all in the same boat. And remember that the majority of "common" people have still not seen a panorama - or a virtual tour.
I know that my biggest challenge is not to convince that the clients should use me, and not my competitors, but that they should invest in a virtual tour! My biggest challenge is to explain what a virtual tour is. The different features and value of a virtual tour.
There is a huge potential market for virtual tours but at the moment the need is latent. So instead of keeping focus on who produce the best tours, and who is the best techie, we should focus on making the public - and our target group - aware of the benifits and the features of a high quality virtual tour.

We now have a tool that I believe can help us spread the knowledge of virtual tours. But it requires a lot more people spreading the word about FPP tours so the publich will start demanding high quality tours and not crappy one shot tours. But in order to achieve that - we need a version of FPP - with a GUI or a lot better step by step tutorials - so it will be a lot more accessible to people without programming knowledge.

If you look around at other VT forums you will learn that most people providing virtual tours are either photographers who have also adapted panoramas in to their protfolio - or people like me who started without prior knowledge about photography or programming but from sheer exitement toward this new technology.

Personally I have absolutely no prior knowledge about programming, so for me FPP is very confusing, and extremely hard to figure out. Sure there are tutorials - but they require that you have some basic knowledge.
There is no doubt in my mind that fullscreen tours are the way to go, and I will give it my best to learn what I need to use FPP - but it is a struggle, and I have already used so many days and I am still stuck on some of the most basic things.

zleifr/Zephyr is asking what a GUI should contain?????

As I see it FPP have some of the same capabilities like other virtual tour software packages like Tourweaver from Easypano and Realviz. FPP is just more versatile and the outcome is much better. But it could be a good place to start.
Here is what I would like from a gui:

1) the ability to choose wich panoramas to use in a scene.
2) Limit borders
3) adding hotspots linking the different scenes
4) adding hotspots opening pop-up windows
5) Adding thumbnails
6) Mouse over effects (like tooltips)
7) adding music and/or speaker voices
8) Adding text boxes
9) Adding a floorplan with a compass feature

There are probably many other features that would be valuable but these are what comes to mind just now.

I also know that these features exist - they just require a lot of manual coding, and there is a very high learning curve for that. And I bet that the programming it self takes a long time too.

WHAT WOULD I PAY?
Almost anything, if it is worth the investment. I sell virtual tours and I expect to make good money doing so in the future. I also know that it requires the best equipment possible. So I have invested several thousands on a camera, and additional hardware. I also had to buy a new powerfull computer, just like I had to invest a lot of my time learning to shoot and process the images to get a proper panoramic image.
I will therefore gladly invest a good sum of money in a piece of software that can help me speed up my learning curve and make my workflow more effecient. Hans suggested $200-400 but I would also be willing to pay a lot more!!
If you look at the competitors - then a company like Easypano charges $699 for their tw3 - and it is filled with bugs and therefore useless for a commercial purpose.

Patrick joked that he would gladly make a gui for Hans for 3000-5000$ Then do it! If you make a good GUI that acutally works - then you should have no problems making 5000$. I would gladly contribute to paying for your efforts!

I HAVE AN IDEA:

I know that a future GUI rely on Dennis, and he is awfull quite at this forum, so the future is uncertain. But I have an idea of how it could work:

1) a basic GUI with a userfriendly interface is developed at a starting price of for instance 100-200usd. This can perhaps be done by Dennis.

2) It is made "open source" so other people can continue developing features and selling them as plug-ins. Just like zleifr made the tooltip plug-in.

Could this approach work?

Another - and more basic approach - could be if some of you experienced guys made step by step tutorials with screen shots and explanitory text accompanied by the xml documents. A few good topics could be:

1) How to include a floor plan
2) 3 different ways to make thumbnails
3) How to include a video clip

zleifr asked: "How much would you pay to "outsource" the xml writing to an expert xml writer?"

I don't like this idea. I don't like being dependent on someone else when producing tours. I also believe that in the long run it will be much more expensive. But I will gladly pay for a well written tutorial, private tuition or for templates that can teach me how to develop the different features my self.
So let this be an invitation to anybody who believe they can teach a xml newbie the world of FPP :)

Best regards
Morten

cheathamlane

11-24-2007, 04:37 PM

Morten:

Your post really is of several parts.

This is my second go at responding, since my typing was taking so long my login timed out & I lost everything I typed! (denis: please do something about that!)

Absolutely, education of clients and potential clients is key -- I evangelize daily, and have been since the beginning of my career as a panographer. Like you, I began without any real hands-on experience in photography, but I was (and am) filled with enthusiasm.

High quality (full screen and/or print quality) VR Photography has been around for much longer than FPP. "Spreading the word" has always been the issue... :)

Personally speaking, the potential clients who demand one-shot tours from me don't generally end up being my clients. But, my market is one which wouldn't accept one-shot images. There are of course markets and jobs all across the spectrum of type, price and quality-of-image, in many of which a one-shot can do just fine.

"Spreading the word" is one reason I joined the IVRPA (http://ivrpa.org) (and am on its board, through December), and take part in the IVRPA's and other groups (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/)' forums, discussions, and real-live conferences (http://conference.ivrpa.org).

Personally I have absolutely no prior knowledge about programming, so for me FPP is very confusing, and extremely hard to figure out. Sure there are tutorials - but they require that you have some basic knowledge.
There is no doubt in my mind that fullscreen tours are the way to go, and I will give it my best to learn what I need to use FPP - but it is a struggle, and I have already used so many days and I am still stuck on some of the most basic things.

I think this is one of the most interesting threads in a very long time, and it raises a very interesting question. Should FPP only be for developers or should it be for photographers?

Well, why should it be for photographers?

When I started out in photography, I did everything I could to learn about it, short of going back to college. I assisted other photographers for less than illustrious wages, attended seminars and meetings, and shot, shot, shot. I still read every day, and practice and try to learn about new things in the photography world.

Similarly, learning Flash as well as I do -- and I admit that changing gears from AS2 to AS3 is a bit painful for me -- took time and effort. There are a zillion and one resources for people to go to where they can get at least the basics of Flash scripting and thought-process; an understanding of XML; an understanding of (insert code or language here). Many of the problems people have are not really with FPP itself -- it's with Flash or because of an incomplete understanding of the XML they're writing. I'm speaking generally here, and not to any one specific person. [edit: scott witte made a nice post (http://flashpanoramas.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3040&postcount=4) here]

In professional photography and Web development arenas, it is quite common for there to be more than one person on a job -- photographers hire assistants and stylists etc all the time. Web development is likewise comprised of various people with various talents -- a graphic designer here, an ASP coder there, your Flash monkey on this end, the copy writer over on that end. Why should one person wear all the hats?

Patrick joked that he would gladly make a gui for Hans for 3000-5000$ Then do it! If you make a good GUI that acutally works - then you should have no problems making 5000$. I would gladly contribute to paying for your efforts!

Ha, cool -- I wasn't really joking, though, Morten. Would you contribute beforehand? Why should I (or anyone) work on spec? Do you accept clients who say "If you photograph and build us this really cool Virtual Tour, and we like it, we might buy it"?

Creation and upkeep of a GUI for FPP will require the developer to be in Denis's hip pocket, to make it a really worthwhile GUI. I don't see Denis reaching out to anyone (and why should he?). If a GUI is only going to be reactive to changes in FPP, and not proactive, then it's going to be a hassle for the developer.

WHAT WOULD I PAY?
Almost anything, if it is worth the investment. I sell virtual tours and I expect to make good money doing so in the future. I also know that it requires the best equipment possible. So I have invested several thousands on a camera, and additional hardware. I also had to buy a new powerfull computer, just like I had to invest a lot of my time learning to shoot and process the images to get a proper panoramic image.
I will therefore gladly invest a good sum of money in a piece of software that can help me speed up my learning curve and make my workflow more effecient. Hans suggested $200-400 but I would also be willing to pay a lot more!!
If you look at the competitors - then a company like Easypano charges $699 for their tw3 - and it is filled with bugs and therefore useless for a commercial purpose.

...I have an idea of how it could work:

1) a basic GUI with a userfriendly interface is developed at a starting price of for instance 100-200usd. This can perhaps be done by Dennis.

2) It is made "open source" so other people can continue developing features and selling them as plug-ins. Just like zleifr made the tooltip plug-in.

Could this approach work?

Sounds a little sticky to me... Besides, in one breath you say you'll pay anything and then in the next you set the price for the GUI developer and want it to be open source. ;) :P

zleifr asked: "How much would you pay to "outsource" the xml writing to an expert xml writer?"

I don't like this idea. I don't like being dependent on someone else when producing tours. I also believe that in the long run it will be much more expensive. But I will gladly pay for a well written tutorial, private tuition or for templates that can teach me how to develop the different features my self.

Hmmm... paying for a well written tutorial and paying for outsourcing sound very similar to me. ;) Why not pay to outsource so you can concentrate on being a good photographer? Your client isn't paying you for your XML-writing skills, are they? They're paying you for your image.

That said, I applaud the fact that you want to learn rather than just have full projects handed to you by other helpful folks at the FPP forums.

I get good insight and help from the forums, and it recently resulted in my dropdown menu plugin -- which I made available to all as a way of saying thanks.

--
I think a GUI for FPP would be cool -- I'd like to see Denis weigh in on the topic, or at least give the green light to someone.

Who knows, maybe zleifr is off making one (he's been a little quiet today ;) ).

Cheers,

zleifr

11-24-2007, 05:14 PM

Hans / Wideyes: Thank you for your input. It is really valuable.

Hans: I have never used CubicConnector, but I looked at their tutorial, which gives a really clear idea of how the application works. And I get it now. I don't know if I personally would or would not use. Probably not, but that's just because I am comfortable and happy with my ugly xml. But I can see how lots and lots of people would use that, and never do anything fancier with FPP.

In thinking about how I, or anyone, for that matter could develop a GUI (really more just as a mental excercise for me.) I finally realized that the perfect platform would be Adobe AIR, which is basically Flash, but on a local machine (not a server) and WITH access to the file system and most everything a normal local application needs. And then I remembered that Denis has been messing around with AIR, and I looked up his blog and Denis mentions there, "Working on GUI for Flash Panorama Player....."

So, maybe a GUI will arrive at some time from Denis, or maybe development has stalled. It really is a serious undertaking, so I can certainly see that it could have stalled, or not arrive for a year.

I agree with wideyes, Patrick (cheathamlane) if you can develop a GUI, you should seriously consider it. I could develop a GUI, but the platform would have to be a perl web application on my server, which would necessitate the pain of uploading all a user's images to my server before you could use it, which is not exactly user friendly. I could maybe develop some sort of wizard-like templating system for basic panos, in which the user types the panoName var, with with static control spots, autorotation, and maybe a even multi-node using patrick's extensible comboBox controller. But it would not be a GRAPHICAL user interface, because it wouldn't actually have the images to view the pano / tour live. It would just output the xml file to use as-is or to edit. I don't know if there is any demand for that.

As for writing tutorials etc, I don't know that I have the time, I spend enough of it already answering direct questions on the forum, but I would like to see a CORRECTED english translation of Denis' tutorial. I am sure Denis would agree with me that his english is at times hard to understand, and less than clear, and worse yet, there are numerous little errors. I think that would a long way towards helping new users.

Please keep this conversation going. I think we are really getting somewhere.

cheathamlane

11-24-2007, 06:05 PM

Hans / Wideyes: Thank you for your input. It is really valuable.

Hans: I have never used CubicConnector, but I looked at their tutorial, which gives a really clear idea of how the application works. And I get it now. I don't know if I personally would or would not use. Probably not, but that's just because I am comfortable and happy with my ugly xml. But I can see how lots and lots of people would use that, and never do anything fancier with FPP.

zleifr -- you should also look at Pleinpot -- I think it is more akin to what people are looking for.

I agree with wideyes, Patrick (cheathamlane) if you can develop a GUI, you should seriously consider it.

:)

I'm considering... It's a lot of work though.

Adobe AIR is really cool, but I'm trying to work with the toolkit I have -- and that is Flash. ;) Powerful 3rd party software like mProjector, which I have used and am using to great effect for several projects, let us use Flash to create applications that dive into system functionality -- from writing to the hard drive to FTP functionality.

Z, if you want to discuss things offline I'm happy to -- I bet together we could brainstorm something really nice. I don't mean to take this conversation off-list, but I could explain some of the "plumbing" aspects to you. (Wideyes & Hans, your input is good -- don't let my declamations throw you. ;) )

We might also try to get Denis in on our conversation so we aren't hit with any surprises. My spinControl project was blindsided by Apple's sudden decisions to 1) disable Flash functionality within Quicktime and 2) disable any calls except http: type links; This is what made me abandon my last GUI attempt.

I'd hate to put a lot of effort into something which could make FPP less frustrating for the new user, only to have it superseded or made obsolete by changes from Denis's end.

jaaaab

11-28-2007, 08:56 AM

Hi all,

What a big storm of ideas :)

To me there's really two ways to go:

-First:

the ability for FPP users to get an easier way to perform simple actions as placing hotspots by dragging them on the pano and stuff like this into a GUI, which would be in fact an evoluate version of the editor.

But here we really got to wait for Denis to improve his editor, because he's the one who created FPP, he's the one who knows it the best, he's the one who can do it faster and better for us.

I think any attempt by any user will be useless, because as Patrick said, it will be hard to follow FPP developpement in the future etc...

Another thing is that what users will be allowed to make with that kind of GUI will drive every body to get into similar tours, which in the end will still get some users to say "no! i want the ability to create customized virtual tours without any coding knowledge and as simple as a gui!"

-Second:

That's what introduces second idea. That's impossible to automate everything into a generic GUI, i think to interactive features that are specialized or unique for certain tours.

So why are some of you so away from the idea of outsourcing features-coding to a specialist? Come on, that's how it works in every domain, particurlarly on the Web. There's WYSIWYG editor for creating websites, but you cant' do everything with it, if you want to add interactivity to your site you have to code some Php or some Flash, and when you cannot do that, the only way is to outsource, or to learn!

Personnaly i already work for some guys here on the forum, and i can say they are really happy because i bring lot of interactivity to their tours and the developpement delay is really fast, and their clients are even more happy.

Everybody is happy :D

I'll try to keep Denis in Touch about this Thread.

Regards.

ericob

11-29-2007, 07:41 AM

A few thoughts on the idea of a "Visual Interface to [some of] Flash Panorama Player's Functionality."

One benefit of the current "interface" (which actually isn't an interface at all -- it's a collection of tutorials, examples, swf files, forum posts, etc.) is that Denis (and whoever else) can invent a new feature and make that available quickly. If they think of a new parameter for the feature, they can release a new version. GUIs don't lend themselves to such quick changes.

With a GUI, one thing you have to do before programming it is figure out how to "present" the functionality of the clump of technology you're dealing with. What features should be grouped together, what features or settings might be contradictory? (And then, should you warn the user, or just block the action?)

Many features and settings that affect the visual behavior of the panorama seem to beg for some sort of "Direct Manipulation" interface. It is going to be a challenge to figure out what kind of "handle" or "knob" to somehow attach to a panorama that controls some of those settings.

Oh: This would have to work at least on both Mac and Windows (if not Linux, too).

Now, after you've got all that done, and a programmer invents a new feature (or just a new or changed function for an existing feature)... Is it going to automatically appear in the interface of the GUI?

Nope. And what if the new feature breaks new ground in such a way that there isn't really a good way to force it into the conceptual space the GUI was built on?

Perhaps it's possible to have "Too much GUI, too soon." :)

On the other hand, a graphical interface that only concerns itself with a subset of the functionality of FPP might be fairly "easy" to conceptualize and build. I'm imagining a web-based tool where the user could make a number of choices, the press a button hand have the back end generate what could amount to as little as a "skeleton."

At least, though, you wouldn't have to deal with full complexity of the plugins folder (48 items) or figuring what to delete or modify in the template.xml file.

Examples of things like this...

Three that build css tab menus...

http://www.tabsgenerator.com/
http://www.tabsgenerator.com/ (click "Online Menu Builder")
http://www.opencube.com/--be sure to select a menu in the right pane, then click the "Customize Menu" button way down on the right to see the rest of the interface. (This product also exists as a downloadable file... I can't make out what that is though... maybe a bunch of JavaScript?)
Customizing Monoslideshow (a Flash-based slideshow creator):
http://www.monoslideshow.com/demo/--below the live slide show are a large number of settings you can configure.
The "configurator" for Highslide JS

http://vikjavev.no/highslide/configurator.php
(This product is interesting. I'd say it rivals FPP in depth and complexity. Check the links on the main page for "API Reference" and "Documentation," for example.)

Generally, these all work by allowing you to make choices about available settings by way of radio buttons, check boxes, combo boxes, typing into an entry box (like for menu names or the like). Some generate a live preview. Then there's some button you press to have the file or files generated and downloaded to your computer.

Being presented on a web page they should be cross-platform. (The one at OpenCube claims it need Firefox or Internet Explorer, but seems to work fine with Safari 3.)

Being web pages, they are amenable relatively quick additions and modifications.

Downside: there is little or no Direct Manipulation of things in any of these. You change settings and a preview updates. If we need to draw hotspots, it seems that a preview of the panorama will need to be displayed, and then it will have to be possible to add, position and reshape "hot spots" by dragging them with the mouse. Dragging a slider and waiting for a dead preview to update isn't going to cut it.

And, we'll want to drag on the panorama to move different areas into view.

Then there's the challenge of how to present the pano-to-pano linking functionality.

That stuff sounds more like a "program" than a web page. Since the panoramas are built in Flash I would guess that it's only Flash that knows when and where a mouse-down... drag... mouse-up occurs. So may using Adobe AIR (at least for the hotspot and linking interface) is the right direction to consider.

Maybe making it a web app is the right thing too. Most panoramas displayed using FPP technology are probably going to be shown from a web site; most authors probably have access to a web server (it might be on the same computer they're working on normally); The GUI will need access to the panoramas... it sure seems easier to bring the GUI to the panoramas than to bring the panos to the GUI!

That's all!

eo

zleifr

11-29-2007, 04:20 PM

I agree with jaaaab as to outsourcing xml to professionals. I think something to facilitate the meeting of said professionals, and users would be good to implement.

And I have another idea about a GUI, which would not be a GUI, but rather an xml editor, specialized for fpp. It would offer users information about the full extent of available parameters for any tag, and the range of acceptable values. It would make it impossible to output incorrect xml. It could also be attached to a live preview.

What is the collective opinion of that?

Bernd

12-07-2007, 05:05 PM

After reading this posting .... I must say ... :
I'm agree 100% with Hans !

I want to take pictures ... and not to sit hours over hours at the pc
and study and programming xml, flash etc...

I have paid for FFP and I will pay again for a good and easy to use FFP-GUI !!!

Best from germany
Bernd
www.360bilder.de

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-10-2007, 08:28 PM

when everybody here started learning photography it was a new world, and with much dedication spended hours and hours shooting, developing... asking your master, talking with people about photography.
then you wanted to learn digital photography, and spended lot of more hours in front of the computer, trying to learn how does photoshop works... a complete new world, a complete new lenguage.
One day you saw for the first time a panorama and this little insect in your stomach didnґt let you sleep by night. So it was time to learn to do panoramas... bought you first panohead, looked for the nodal point, bought your first stiching soft, but before buying anything you looked for the best prices, quality and features... then, again... hours and hours in front of the computer trying to do your first stich... but it was a mess and you had to go back with your camera, find again the nodal point, asked for help in forums, shoot again and go back to stich...
finally you became a good panographer and now itґs time to put your ass on the chair again and spend decens of hours trying to understand how this soft works and do the most creative things you want to do...
if you are not disposed to do that... then FPP is not for you.

And when I bought my first car, I didn't need to go learn how to sew, so that I could cover the seats in the car with fabric of some kind.

Nor did I have to go through years of chemical engineering in order to know how to make gasoline and lubricants for the car.

That being said, I am all FOR the possibility of people being able to customize their pictures. That is something that keeps evolution of the software on top of things.

And then there are people who haven't got the time (or will) to sit down and learn coding. They NEED something that is easy and simple.

Yes, a simple, functional GUI could generate a lot of business. In my opinion, there should be the GUI and the non GUI versions available.

How much I would be willing to pay for a GUI version that could ease up all the processes for me? Much more than 60 dollars, that's for sure. 300 bucks would be in the high end of the scale, but still acceptable if things worked well.

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-14-2007, 11:56 PM

WideEyes

12-17-2007, 01:17 PM

Talk is cheap they say.

The work on a GUI has begun on my request (and through my financing). It will be simple in the beginning, and most likely not something the pro-coders would make much use of, but it will be a good platform for non-coders to do basic things with, and save a lot of time.

Several functions already working and failfree, much more work to be done.

That would be an awsome Christmas present - so it is great news :)

Can you tell anything else about the project? What it will include, when we can expect to see a beta? And so on?

best regards
Morten

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-17-2007, 03:24 PM

Thanks Morten.

I think Christmas THIS YEAR will be a too early date, but how about a new-years version? During January there should be a good chance of something resembling a fully working test version. But as I have said earlier, this is going to be a basic tool.

As you can see from the attached picture, it's still dressed in it's baby diaper graphically and functionally. But what there is, works (almost to my liking... there is still a lot of space for improvements though).

I should probably start a new thread for this project, since I will be needing advice and general imput.

http://upload.hraunfjord.org/files/FPPguiDec17th2007.jpg

cheathamlane

12-17-2007, 03:43 PM

Wow Tuddi -- good luck in the GUI venture! Will it come with a policeman-removal brush? ;-)

Serious question: will it be Mac and Windows?

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-17-2007, 04:16 PM

To begin with, it will work in both Mac and Windows... later on it should work in Linux (or so I am being told by the develloper).

Re: Removal brush for less than public-serving policemen... I think it will be easier with body-bags :)

johnwilletts

12-18-2007, 12:46 PM

I am a newby. This is my first posting. I bought Flashpanorama in September - and after working 4 full days a week, I finally put my site on line last night, it's still got a number of bugs which I have to ask you guys to help me sort out.

I was quite fluent at Basic, and therefore know a little about programming but I've found it very difficult to get my head round this one. If the results hadn't been so spectacular, I would have given up years ago.

I'm not saying that a GUI wouldn't be useful and timesaving but it could lead to a blandness of results.

Personally, I would much prefer for Denis to spend his time on documentation, for absolute beginners through to advanced with lots of examples.

I've worked on teaching materials and I know how difficult it is for experts to see a technique from a novices point of view - especiallly when one is working in non-native language. I for one, and I'm sure there are others who would be willing to help him.
Regards,
John

_____________

http://www.j-a-willetts-esq.com

johnwilletts

12-18-2007, 01:17 PM

cheathamlane

12-18-2007, 03:24 PM

Hey John:

Kudos to you for tenacity! :) ...also, love the knights-in-armor pano.

This forum is a great place to share things you've learned, and to ask questions -- but I totally agree with you regarding the documentation. I think there could be better explanation in layman's terms, along with more concrete code and visual examples.

I've started an initiative to augment the current documentation online, so it's accessible to all. See the link below for info, and a link to an example entry. All are invited to help out, from writing one short entry to as many as they want. :)

http://flashpanos.com/content/online-fpp-documentation

Cheers,

Helge

12-18-2007, 08:03 PM

Hi FPP User,

today I purchased a license of fpp (thx Thomas) and start working on the fpp implementation in JATC.
You dont know JATC? It is freeware tourcreator supporting in version 1.2 :

* Creation of complex pano tours or simple single pano
* Defining hotspots interactively
* Supporting point and polygonal hotspots
* Automatic hotspot creation
* Defining nadir/cap/flat image
* Defining map/floorplan (only SPi-V and PurePlayerPro)
* Preview of tour/pano
* Creation of preview images for panos
* Create a tour to be viewed with PurePlayer or PurePlayerPro-Plugin (www.immervision.com) or SPi-V (www.fieldofview.nl)
* Save and load tour to/from JATC project file

I am current working on Version 2.0 with added support for PTViewer output and basic support of fpp.

rgds,

Helge

HansNyberg

12-18-2007, 08:24 PM

Hi Helge

What about starting converting to Mac, I guess at least 50% of the VR Photographers are Mac users and they are also those who are used to have good Guis (like CubicConverter and Connector.

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-18-2007, 08:47 PM

Hi there Helge and welcome.

I was directed to your site by Thomas, downloaded the JATC and intend to try it out soon (to tell the truth, it's been installed and started up for a few hours without me having got the time to do anything more than that).

Helge

12-18-2007, 09:26 PM

@Hans: Sorry, but JATC is written in .Net. I have no experience in running .Net software on a mac. In fact: I have seen a mac some times, but never used : -) sorry. You know something about runing .Net based code on a Mac?

@Tuddi: thx for your welcome.

rgds,
Helge

cheathamlane

12-18-2007, 10:13 PM

Hi Helge:

I look forward to seeing JATC include FPP output -- but similar to you (in reverse), I won't be able to use it in my production environment because I'm all Mac.

I bet if you asked around, you could find another person in the industry who would help port JATC to Mac.

That said, with Intel running rampant, I see no reason for _new_ software to run on only one platform. Ha, easy for me to say!

Helge

12-20-2007, 10:56 AM

Hi Helge:
I look forward to seeing JATC include FPP output -- but similar to you (in reverse), I won't be able to use it in my production environment because I'm all Mac.

May you send me a Mac to make some implementations:-)
I have to check if its possible to run JATC under the mono framework.
rgds,
Helge

cheathamlane

12-20-2007, 12:55 PM

Helge -- If I had a spare Mac, it would be yours! :)

Trausti Hraunfjord

12-24-2007, 06:48 AM

That would be an awsome Christmas present - so it is great news :)

Can you tell anything else about the project? What it will include, when we can expect to see a beta? And so on?

best regards
Morten

Ok, I guess you can consider this as a christmas present. I honestly didn't think this to be possible within the timeframe, but we have been working on the project day and night for the past 12 days, and this is what has come out of it sofar (publicly):

http://flashpanoramas.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3929&postcount=19

.... sе... glжdelig jul!

ploft

01-22-2008, 03:30 PM

Kodus on a great thread. Aifios, with all due respect, you missed the whole point. The majority of the users of FPP are photographers that make a living producing 360VR for their clients. The quality of their work is not in the interface that delivers the content but the techniques they've learned to produce the 360vr. FPP is another tool out of many that gives up the ability to deliver our content to our clients in a clean and exciting way.

FPP could be for everyone if there was GUI that allowed easy creation and distribution of my VR content. I have most of the programs (cubic converter, pano2vr, pureplayer, cubic connector, ptgui, realviz stitcher, and pleinpot.) None of them can create a flash VR with picture menus and navigation like FPP. (Maybe pureplayer but you still have to code a lot and it shoots out really big files). I wish Pleinpot or pano2vr would come out with a gui that create good looking clean tours. For right now the market belongs to FPP(for those who know how to code). They really need to get on top of this before they miss the boat.

I have 6 hours invested in this software that's not making me any money. I would much rather be marketing to potential clients or learning a new panoramic technique. I have a simple flash panorama to show for it. Same thing I can get from most of my other software.

Flashificator is good hope. But I can't get it to work on my mac currently and the tour version doesn't come out until Feb. It would be great to see Tuddi and FPP get together to create a great GUI.

In summary give me a great GUI that creates great flash tours and I'll pay the money because my clients will pay the money. Make it easy to work. Make sure it gives a couple tour options.

gato

01-25-2008, 08:52 PM

Hi there s,

what a stupid discussion of mac or windows. If you are a realy professional mac user you have an Intelmac and run OSX, XP or Vista or Linux or anything else on it.

So Helge and Tuddy: Go on to do yours jobs. With Windows or Mac...its the same...only it has to function.

gato

Trausti Hraunfjord

01-25-2008, 09:07 PM

With Windows or Mac...its the same...only it has to function.

I fully agree, and in case of the Flashificator, it WILL work for both when it is released. There is no other acceptable option.